(No Title)

I'm winding up a semester of full-time college, and I'm about to turn 48. I like to average about 13 years between semesters, but that's another subject. Let me share what I've learned this time around: My vocabulary and syntactic abilities are not sophisticated enough to handle the delicate balancing act that is multiculturalism. Political correctness has suffered a similar fate at my hand. I was even good-naturedly accused by a professor of making a sexist comment in Psych class, which thrilled me no end. I didn't know I had it in me. In addition, I make a crummy feminist, and hold the women's movement singularly responsible for the butchering of the English language. How else could it have happened that a simple phrase such as "if a student avoids math, he is reducing his ability..." be convoluted into the awkward "if a student avoids math, he or she is reducing his or her ability..." and then finally multiplied into the bizarre "if a student avoids math, they are reducing their ability..." Call me culturally insensitive, but I remain attached to the original method of conveying this idea. Any reader but the most obtuse understands that a student is either male or female, and that "he" is the most concise way to deliver that thought. It seems odd to me that, with all the disparities that exist between me and the student of today, I'm the one who's labelled "non-traditional."

Posted by Katy on 12/07/01 at 11:20 AM

Fallible Comments...

Patty--It tells me that you are creative, adaptable, versatile, and thoroughly modern while retaining a wholesome touch of linguistic and cultural tradition. I like you very much.
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
no no no. i would gladly mix up the plural and singular, and i don't think any real reader would blink or pause for even a second to consider my meaning. on the other hand, every time i see 'he' used as a genderless pronoun, i pause and wonder why the writer chose that form-- i suppose it's because i've been indoctrinated with political correctness-- but i don't care what *causes* the unclear meaning, i would just avoid it.<br><br>to be fair, i suppose i'm elevating clarity above all other considerations, which isn't always appropriate. the right tool for the job, etc etc.
Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Bethany--Because of my advanced age, I still have the option of feigning ignorance about the "advance" of the culture, and/or openly rebelling against it. My detractors can imagine I have Alzheimer's or something, and perhaps they will pity me. BTW, "and/or" is another little deal I can't handle, but give and take is very important, don't you think? Tee, hee.
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Scotty--Is that what you mean? Love from Your Mom
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Jonathan--Thank you. I feel vindicated. Although my son is almost a linguist, if he thinks "they" is clear, he is clearly mistaken. Maybe Scott means he would say, "Students...they," which of course is acceptable, though can be problematic when the writer really wants to be referring to a student in the singular sense.
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
If I were writing that paper, I would go out of my way to say "he" as many times as possible. As for Scott's assertions about clear communication, I would be inclined to say that "he or she," though perhaps awkward, is many times clearer than the use of "they" (which confuses number) or use of the passive (which becomes very confusing). Simply using "he" or even "she" is much clearer than the other options when the antecedent is singular but the gender unspecified.
Posted by jonvw on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
if i were writing the paper, i would intentionally use the "they" form, or else i might avoid the problem altogether by passivising. it's my sense that multiculturalism and feminism are not something that need to be 'pandered to' or 'reckoned with'-- but they ought to be *considered* in order for good, clear communication to take place.
Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
katy--yes, i thoroughly agree with all of your comments. it's ridiculous to pander to the politically correct and insert the awkard "he or she will produce his or her best effort," or something similar. but, what are you going to do? :)
Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Bethany--No, the profs did not instruct that the newest configuration is the proper one. It's just something that I "learned" on campus--it has become, if not acceptable grammatically, at least overlooked. In my creative writing class, I heard the prof correct lots of usage errors when we critiqued works aloud, but she never challenged this one. My sense is that while it violates an English rule, at least it doesn't violate a feminist manifesto--and that that force is one more to be reckoned with. Or with which to be reckoned! Just in the mood for an old lady rant, I think. Thanks!
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Scotty--How is "he" a genderless pronoun? "It" is genderless. "He," used in the way we are speaking of here, in a gender-inclusive pronoun. Since, when "he" is used thus, it is expected by the reader that the word is not referring to a specific male or female, but rather to a generic person, where's the confusion? It's a perfect form, and one which should have not been abandoned for the ungrammatical singular/plural mishmash which makes me cringe in horror upon my every encounter of it. But allow me to defer to your credentials and to your good humor in granting me my idiosyncracies. I have another rant along these lines--would you like me to share it?
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
true enough, 'he' isn't really a genderless pronoun, but it is often used as a gender-neutral one. and i don't object to that-- but i do contend that in many contexts, 'they' can be an acceptable substitute, and oftentimes, a preferable one.
Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Okay..my take on all this he/she/they discussion...however awkward and grammatically incorrect, using "they" is completely appropriate. I, in fact, would prefer to see "they" used as opposed to the more traditional "he", simply because I don't care to think everyone about whom I am reading is a man. In college, I believe the "he or she" choice of wording is preferred. I know that many of my psych/counselor textbooks from grad school say in the foreword that they will be using "he" simply for simplicity, but that they are not always referring to a man. Just my thoughts....
Posted by Bridget on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
I use he and she alternatively. If I'm writing a paper and in the paper I have more than one example or situation, I'll use he for the first and she for the second or vice-versa. I rarely use "he or she", though that has been known to happen on occasion, and I only use they in casual conversation. Even in casual conversation, though, I often 'nuff use he as well. And I'm a female, born in '81. So what does that tell ya?
Posted by PattyT on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
i'm here! :) mourning the death of comments on my website... but i digress.<br>my english teachers, as well, point out the "new" and "old" methods of grammar, including things such as putting one space between sentences v. two; whether to put a comma after a list of items, before the and ("i own bananas, tennis shoes, oranges, postcards, and toads" v. the last comma being absent); and other sundry areas of new oversweeping old or traditional. howevever, i have never heard a teacher promote the use of the pronoun "they" in reference to a singular noun. in fact, if one were to use "they" in that manner, i don't know a single english teacher in my school (whom i have learned under) who would not take off points for it.<br>but that's just my school. maybe nebraska is slow in getting trends (plus the fact that i attend a christian high school, where they are pretty much unconcerned with appearing politically correct).
Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Bethany, Jonathan, where art thou?
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Bridget--You're aligning yourself with a man who says "grammaticality"? How you handle this in a teaching context is interesting--so teachers have to pretty much be constantly alert to how the rules may be changing, by monitoring, among other things, I suppose, the "current usage" situation. So you introduce both the "old" and "new" ways to your students--I wonder how long it takes before the "old" ways stop being optional and start being archaic? Scott probably knows the answer to this, and I bet you do, too. I'm gonna' stick with the old ways, at the risk of seeming crotchety. But I do admire the flexibility of youth!
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Incorrect simply because it is (traditionally) grammatically wrong. Appropriate because, as with anything else, rules change over time in the writing process. The way I was taught to write in school may or may not be the "correct" way to write now. I know that I teach certain skills to my students both the "old" way and the "new" way, and tell them the differences. They usually choose the more recent method, which is fine, but I find it important to point out the many variations to them. Sorry, Katy, I'm with Scott on this one... :)
Posted by Bridget on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Rotten kid.
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
ooooohh, it looks like my claim of grammaticality and context-dependent appropriateness is vindicated.
Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
Bridget--So, if it's "awkward and grammatically incorrect," what about it makes it "appropriate"? Gosh, arguing with my baby sister is almost as much fun as arguing with my big kid! Love,
Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM
really? your profs. had you write "they are reducing..."? in my school, we can write "he is reducing," or the more preferred "he or she is reducing," but never ever "they are reducing." it's quite frowned upon, being improper while the other is merely awkward.
-----
Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM

Page 1 of 1 pages

Commenting is not available in this weblog entry.

Next entry: (No Title)

Previous entry: (No Title)

<< Back to main


		more fallible attitude »

Personal blog of christian writer & fallible mom Katy McKenna Raymond in Kansas City, Missouri Katy is represented by Greg Johnson at WordServe Literary Read more Katy at LateBoomer.net Follow Katy on Twitter Follow Katy on Facebook 123 Recent Posts Try Becoming Brenda Starr Off Beat Scattered That’s It So I’ve Finally Signed With An Agent. Now What? The Spoon Sciatica Sweetheart A Woman’s Train of Thought Has No Caboose However much we own, we are all still living on borrowed time After all, when restaurants shrink portions, they don’t shrink prices. As with everything in life, balance is key. Slow down, you move too fast… Yeah, I know. I have issues. Search Advanced Search Syndicate Login E me at katy @ ngenius.com	(No Title) I'm winding up a semester of full-time college, and I'm about to turn 48. I like to average about 13 years between semesters, but that's another subject. Let me share what I've learned this time around: My vocabulary and syntactic abilities are not sophisticated enough to handle the delicate balancing act that is multiculturalism. Political correctness has suffered a similar fate at my hand. I was even good-naturedly accused by a professor of making a sexist comment in Psych class, which thrilled me no end. I didn't know I had it in me. In addition, I make a crummy feminist, and hold the women's movement singularly responsible for the butchering of the English language. How else could it have happened that a simple phrase such as "if a student avoids math, he is reducing his ability..." be convoluted into the awkward "if a student avoids math, he or she is reducing his or her ability..." and then finally multiplied into the bizarre "if a student avoids math, they are reducing their ability..." Call me culturally insensitive, but I remain attached to the original method of conveying this idea. Any reader but the most obtuse understands that a student is either male or female, and that "he" is the most concise way to deliver that thought. It seems odd to me that, with all the disparities that exist between me and the student of today, I'm the one who's labelled "non-traditional." Posted by Katy on 12/07/01 at 11:20 AM Fallible Comments... Patty--It tells me that you are creative, adaptable, versatile, and thoroughly modern while retaining a wholesome touch of linguistic and cultural tradition. I like you very much. Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM no no no. i would gladly mix up the plural and singular, and i don't think any real reader would blink or pause for even a second to consider my meaning. on the other hand, every time i see 'he' used as a genderless pronoun, i pause and wonder why the writer chose that form-- i suppose it's because i've been indoctrinated with political correctness-- but i don't care what causes the unclear meaning, i would just avoid it.<br><br>to be fair, i suppose i'm elevating clarity above all other considerations, which isn't always appropriate. the right tool for the job, etc etc. Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Bethany--Because of my advanced age, I still have the option of feigning ignorance about the "advance" of the culture, and/or openly rebelling against it. My detractors can imagine I have Alzheimer's or something, and perhaps they will pity me. BTW, "and/or" is another little deal I can't handle, but give and take is very important, don't you think? Tee, hee. Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Scotty--Is that what you mean? Love from Your Mom Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Jonathan--Thank you. I feel vindicated. Although my son is almost a linguist, if he thinks "they" is clear, he is clearly mistaken. Maybe Scott means he would say, "Students...they," which of course is acceptable, though can be problematic when the writer really wants to be referring to a student in the singular sense. Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM If I were writing that paper, I would go out of my way to say "he" as many times as possible. As for Scott's assertions about clear communication, I would be inclined to say that "he or she," though perhaps awkward, is many times clearer than the use of "they" (which confuses number) or use of the passive (which becomes very confusing). Simply using "he" or even "she" is much clearer than the other options when the antecedent is singular but the gender unspecified. Posted by jonvw on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM if i were writing the paper, i would intentionally use the "they" form, or else i might avoid the problem altogether by passivising. it's my sense that multiculturalism and feminism are not something that need to be 'pandered to' or 'reckoned with'-- but they ought to be considered in order for good, clear communication to take place. Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM katy--yes, i thoroughly agree with all of your comments. it's ridiculous to pander to the politically correct and insert the awkard "he or she will produce his or her best effort," or something similar. but, what are you going to do? :) Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Bethany--No, the profs did not instruct that the newest configuration is the proper one. It's just something that I "learned" on campus--it has become, if not acceptable grammatically, at least overlooked. In my creative writing class, I heard the prof correct lots of usage errors when we critiqued works aloud, but she never challenged this one. My sense is that while it violates an English rule, at least it doesn't violate a feminist manifesto--and that that force is one more to be reckoned with. Or with which to be reckoned! Just in the mood for an old lady rant, I think. Thanks! Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Scotty--How is "he" a genderless pronoun? "It" is genderless. "He," used in the way we are speaking of here, in a gender-inclusive pronoun. Since, when "he" is used thus, it is expected by the reader that the word is not referring to a specific male or female, but rather to a generic person, where's the confusion? It's a perfect form, and one which should have not been abandoned for the ungrammatical singular/plural mishmash which makes me cringe in horror upon my every encounter of it. But allow me to defer to your credentials and to your good humor in granting me my idiosyncracies. I have another rant along these lines--would you like me to share it? Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM true enough, 'he' isn't really a genderless pronoun, but it is often used as a gender-neutral one. and i don't object to that-- but i do contend that in many contexts, 'they' can be an acceptable substitute, and oftentimes, a preferable one. Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Okay..my take on all this he/she/they discussion...however awkward and grammatically incorrect, using "they" is completely appropriate. I, in fact, would prefer to see "they" used as opposed to the more traditional "he", simply because I don't care to think everyone about whom I am reading is a man. In college, I believe the "he or she" choice of wording is preferred. I know that many of my psych/counselor textbooks from grad school say in the foreword that they will be using "he" simply for simplicity, but that they are not always referring to a man. Just my thoughts.... Posted by Bridget on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM I use he and she alternatively. If I'm writing a paper and in the paper I have more than one example or situation, I'll use he for the first and she for the second or vice-versa. I rarely use "he or she", though that has been known to happen on occasion, and I only use they in casual conversation. Even in casual conversation, though, I often 'nuff use he as well. And I'm a female, born in '81. So what does that tell ya? Posted by PattyT on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM i'm here! :) mourning the death of comments on my website... but i digress.<br>my english teachers, as well, point out the "new" and "old" methods of grammar, including things such as putting one space between sentences v. two; whether to put a comma after a list of items, before the and ("i own bananas, tennis shoes, oranges, postcards, and toads" v. the last comma being absent); and other sundry areas of new oversweeping old or traditional. howevever, i have never heard a teacher promote the use of the pronoun "they" in reference to a singular noun. in fact, if one were to use "they" in that manner, i don't know a single english teacher in my school (whom i have learned under) who would not take off points for it.<br>but that's just my school. maybe nebraska is slow in getting trends (plus the fact that i attend a christian high school, where they are pretty much unconcerned with appearing politically correct). Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Bethany, Jonathan, where art thou? Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Bridget--You're aligning yourself with a man who says "grammaticality"? How you handle this in a teaching context is interesting--so teachers have to pretty much be constantly alert to how the rules may be changing, by monitoring, among other things, I suppose, the "current usage" situation. So you introduce both the "old" and "new" ways to your students--I wonder how long it takes before the "old" ways stop being optional and start being archaic? Scott probably knows the answer to this, and I bet you do, too. I'm gonna' stick with the old ways, at the risk of seeming crotchety. But I do admire the flexibility of youth! Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Incorrect simply because it is (traditionally) grammatically wrong. Appropriate because, as with anything else, rules change over time in the writing process. The way I was taught to write in school may or may not be the "correct" way to write now. I know that I teach certain skills to my students both the "old" way and the "new" way, and tell them the differences. They usually choose the more recent method, which is fine, but I find it important to point out the many variations to them. Sorry, Katy, I'm with Scott on this one... :) Posted by Bridget on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Rotten kid. Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM ooooohh, it looks like my claim of grammaticality and context-dependent appropriateness is vindicated. Posted by sco on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Bridget--So, if it's "awkward and grammatically incorrect," what about it makes it "appropriate"? Gosh, arguing with my baby sister is almost as much fun as arguing with my big kid! Love, Posted by Katy on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM really? your profs. had you write "they are reducing..."? in my school, we can write "he is reducing," or the more preferred "he or she is reducing," but never ever "they are reducing." it's quite frowned upon, being improper while the other is merely awkward. ----- Posted by bethany on 12/31/69 at 12:00 PM Page 1 of 1 pages Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. Next entry: (No Title) Previous entry: (No Title) << Back to main


copyright 2011, ngenius media inc.

Personal blog of christianwriter & fallible momKaty McKenna Raymondin Kansas City, Missouri

Recent Posts

Search

Syndicate

(No Title)

Personal blog of christian
writer & fallible mom
Katy McKenna Raymond
in Kansas City, Missouri