Just Thought I’d Ask

One of the postmodern criticisms of the traditional evangelical church, if I'm understanding this correctly, is that we've formed a Christian sub-culture in which we isolate ourselves from the larger culture, effectively stifling the creation of truly beautiful music, art, and literature from within our ranks.

We were so frightened of disobeying Jesus' injunction to be "in the world but not of the world," it's now believed by many, that we backed off from being even in it, preferring instead to subsist in a ghetto of cheesy contemporary Christian music, Kinkade paintings, and sexless prairie romance novels.

If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), what is the antidote? And what in the name of all that's holy did Jesus mean when he commanded us to be in the world, but not of the world?

Any guesses?

Posted by Katy on 10/24/04 at 01:42 AM

Fallible Comments...

Katy: I just returned from a party at our friends house. He owns the local cigar store and was throwing a party for our dear friend Tony, the only employee of the store. There was drinking (lots), profanity (even more) and, of course, lots of cigar smoking. It was also interesting to me how many people were interested in engaging in discussions about faith.

It seems to me that the antecdote to the Christian subculture is to simply refuse to live in it. I truly believe that many of these 'things' act as a shield against faith discussions. They serve as a way to make 'Christians' feel comfortable. Ironically, many of these people are the same ones who would be most likely to sing, "This world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through."

Some might be tempted use an analogy for this culture vs. the other culture that would similar to "wet vs. dry" or "hot vs. cold". But that assumes that you are choosing among two valid choices. The Christian subculture is really an artificial environment that has had the unfortunate effect of keeping many from having contact with those most in need of the gospel.
-----
Posted by will on 10/24/04 at 09:56 AM
Katy: First of all, I don't know. But somehow my mind connected this a little quote in my weekly journal, with your question: "The only way you can truly control how you're seen is by being honest all the time." - Tom Hanks.

I suspect 'it' has something to do with honesty...first with yourself and God, and then with others - never losing sight of who you are as a fellow traveler while never forgetting who you are in God - ransomed, redeemed, adopted etc. Do you suppose? Or does this take us, again, into the ether?

(p.s. found your blog via Master's Artist. Your entry about housework below, is hilarious!)

Violet
Posted by violet on 10/24/04 at 07:55 PM
It's so curious to me that I am more curious and questioning now then I ever was as a teenager or young adult. Excellent question, Katy! It would seem that those who have a personal relationship with the Creator should then be the most innovative and creative individuals in whatever field they're involved in. I wonder if instead of "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" we become captive to a "lifestyle" that a majority agrees on is what Christ would mean or want. Just another thought ... I'll be chewing on all of these for a while..
Posted by Anne on 10/25/04 at 12:50 AM
So, while we're here in our little subculture, the mainstream has recently been inundating us with musicians of the caliber of Beethoven, Duke Ellington or even Presley? Borders and B&N are crammed with the works of contemporary Shakespeares, Fitzgeralds and Whitmans? Public debate is being carried on by people approaching the genius of Clay, Calhoun and Webster?
And, to the postmodernists, this is important?
Some tastes are, after all, "true" and others are not?
It's not that there's no merit to the critique; but surely the pot is calling the kettle black. As for being in the culture but not of it, is it the postmodernists who are feeding the homeless? Gathering gifts to give to the children of inmates, and others who'd otherwise go without? Freezing by Salvation Army kettles so that that organization will continue to work with those in need where they are?
I happen to dislike the cheesy music, and to think Kinkade's use of color would be more appropriate to the tropics than to his vaguely New and Old England settings; but confess that one of the best novels I've ever read was all but sexless and set on the prarie: Willa Cather's "My Antonia." But if we Christians should indeed rise from our present level of culture, let's hope we don't stop where the mainstream is.
Posted by BobW on 10/25/04 at 04:50 AM
This is not new, but I feel it so acutely--while American Christians are mostly ready to decry the depravity of our mainstream culture, they seem blind to their habit of equating American cultural and political values (e.g., the superiority of capitalism) with those laid out in the Bible. I agree with BobW that there isn't much happening in the mainstream that I feel I am missing as a Christian. Actually, I long for the company of anyone--Christian or otherwise--who has something to talk about other than sports and shopping. However, I expect to remain isolated as a middle-aged person who loves Jesus, loves the Church, loves the Bible, and is a tree-hugging, vegetarian, anti-consumerism, aesthete in the American upper Midwest. I found this blog in my search for solace--our church is having a serious discussion on homosexuality in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and I was doing okay until I foolishly said that I didn't see that it mattered whether Jesus had a relationship with John, with Mary Magdalene, or with no one--it has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel. My point was that we should stop trying to shape God in our own image and rather seek a clear vision of who God really is and wants of us. It took me a week to realize that I had probably offended many people, and now I feel terrible about it. In the end, my Christian subculture really matters to me in a way that nothing else does. I finally got a chance to talk about something really engaging, and I blew it.
Posted by Mary on 10/25/04 at 08:51 AM
One of the things I love most about blogging is the way it gives readers a forum in which to tell it like it is. The comments here have been so thoughtful and individual and from the heart (and mind). I appreciate each of you!

For a number of years in my early faith experience, we were taught not to "touch God's anointed." In other words, don't disagree out loud with the leaders of the church. You can imagine how, for a chick like me, this might have been a bit of a problem... :)

One of the things I'm hoping develops through the emerging church is the capacity to have "conversation" which is able to process disagreement among the conversationalists in a more Christlike manner than the church has managed in the past.

(Mary, I can very much sympathize with the pain you're experiencing after voicing your feelings to your church. I'm sorry...)

We modernists, or pre-emergents, or may-never-figure-out-how-to-be-emergents, or old fogies, or whatever we are--many of us would still like to be included in this process of understanding how better to be Christians who are effectively engaged in the world.

Thanks to everyone here...
Posted by katy on 10/25/04 at 07:58 PM
i said it before, and i'll say it again...while i can appreciate many of the facets of what makes up the "emergent church", i believe that distinctly seperating oneself from the church at large makes you susceptible to being thought of as devisive at best, and cultlike at worst. in the ten years that i have been a born again Christian, nothing has saddened me more than to witness the sides drawn, the barbs thrown, the walls built up and the doors slammed shut by professing believers to what i understand Jesus to have meant by the simple command "love one another." i watch my kids at home fight with each other over the most inane causes, but when an outsider comes in to play with them and there is a discrepancy - it's amazing how quickly they are on the same team against this new threat to playtime harmony. our lives are spent among outsiders, if we've taken up our cross to follow Christ, and while we can't help being physically in the world, we are commanded to not be of it.
take what i say to the extreme, and you get total ecumenicalism to a fault - accepting all that bears His name in some form and questioning nothing. but at the risk of offending friends, i'll still say - take the view of the "emergent church" too far and it is an isolated, finger pointing, mocking club that does not show Christ's love. i don't really think that that's what it has become, i just don't see an excess of being "wise in the way you act toward outsiders; (making) the most of every opportunity"in their literature. to focus on arts being all they can be and leave by the wayside or minimize, as Bob W. pointed out here, helping and serving the poor, the unlovely, the destitute of this world, is plainly wrong. i personally am not drawn to the art of Kincade, or generally what makes up CCM these days - i do not think legislating with all our might against homosexuals is the way to go if we're really following the example of Christ...i do see a bubble, and it's not healthy. but neither, i believe, is speaking out against the bubble in anything but careful love. it's good to shake things up now and then, to reevaluate, to discuss amongst ourselves and to try to in some way to relate in order to reach. i just believe that if this is done without a firm anchor in place, or in a fog of "holier, not to mention cooler than thou" it is not going to end up being a thing that agrees with the heart of God. if this part of the church views itself as a beautiful butterfly crawling out of a colorless, dried up, now useless cocoon - i just want it to be known that i personally have been challenged, encouraged, befriended, taught, and loved tremendously by many in that cocoon, not to mention given beautiful art and music by these same friends. care needs to be taken...

thanks for the forum, katy.

justadjust.blogspot.com
Posted by lisa on 10/25/04 at 09:58 PM
lisa,

i really, really appreciate your thoughts. thank you for sharing them.
Posted by Amber on 10/26/04 at 03:11 AM
amber, thanks for saying that..i hesitated a bit to share all that here, but it is my honest response. hope it at least provokes thought in those who read it and aren't encouraged...
Posted by lisa on 10/26/04 at 09:21 AM
It was very interesting to read all your comments, as an Evangelical Christian in England. I guess if we were in the US they would call us born again, but that label is not used much on this side of the Atlantic.
The interesting thing is that here in England there is no Christian subculture as such, at least not seen from the inside. Cheesy music tends to be restricted to church singing (I wish we sang more of the old hymns, I like that music better) and I know some young Christians who go clubbing and watch football the same way they non-Christian peers do.
It is more from the outside that society seems to often think we are different, and I often feel society feels us to be alien, even more alien than muslims. This does not seem to apply so much to liberal Christians, who are all too willing to embrace contemporary values even if they go against the teaching of the Bible. I think it is very sad that we should be regarded as something alien and not relevant to society. Our church is mostly made up of twenty-somethings and is a very vibrant, friendly community. At the same time mainstream media sometimes goes as far as literally demonising us. As far as the UK is concerned it is not us who need to change, it is not us who erect the fences.
Posted by Susanna on 10/26/04 at 02:27 PM
I've really appreciated all the thoughtful and insightful (not inciteful!) comments here. Thanks to each of you for being honest, and also for not attacking anyone else for their opinions. It's great when a blog can be something of a safe place, and that's what I was hoping might happen here. You're all pretty terrific folks, if you ask me.
Posted by katy on 10/26/04 at 08:15 PM
And a hearty welcome to Violet and Mary, new kids on the fallible block. Not sure if Bob and Susanna are new or not, but make yourselves at home!
Posted by katy on 10/26/04 at 08:19 PM

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Personal blog of christian writer & fallible mom Katy McKenna Raymond in Kansas City, Missouri Katy is represented by Greg Johnson at WordServe Literary Read more Katy at LateBoomer.net Follow Katy on Twitter Follow Katy on Facebook 123 Recent Posts Try Becoming Brenda Starr Off Beat Scattered That’s It So I’ve Finally Signed With An Agent. Now What? The Spoon Sciatica Sweetheart A Woman’s Train of Thought Has No Caboose However much we own, we are all still living on borrowed time After all, when restaurants shrink portions, they don’t shrink prices. As with everything in life, balance is key. Slow down, you move too fast… Yeah, I know. I have issues. Search Advanced Search Syndicate Login E me at katy @ ngenius.com	Just Thought I’d Ask One of the postmodern criticisms of the traditional evangelical church, if I'm understanding this correctly, is that we've formed a Christian sub-culture in which we isolate ourselves from the larger culture, effectively stifling the creation of truly beautiful music, art, and literature from within our ranks. We were so frightened of disobeying Jesus' injunction to be "in the world but not of the world," it's now believed by many, that we backed off from being even in it, preferring instead to subsist in a ghetto of cheesy contemporary Christian music, Kinkade paintings, and sexless prairie romance novels. If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), what is the antidote? And what in the name of all that's holy did Jesus mean when he commanded us to be in the world, but not of the world? Any guesses? Posted by Katy on 10/24/04 at 01:42 AM Fallible Comments... Katy: I just returned from a party at our friends house. He owns the local cigar store and was throwing a party for our dear friend Tony, the only employee of the store. There was drinking (lots), profanity (even more) and, of course, lots of cigar smoking. It was also interesting to me how many people were interested in engaging in discussions about faith. It seems to me that the antecdote to the Christian subculture is to simply refuse to live in it. I truly believe that many of these 'things' act as a shield against faith discussions. They serve as a way to make 'Christians' feel comfortable. Ironically, many of these people are the same ones who would be most likely to sing, "This world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through." Some might be tempted use an analogy for this culture vs. the other culture that would similar to "wet vs. dry" or "hot vs. cold". But that assumes that you are choosing among two valid choices. The Christian subculture is really an artificial environment that has had the unfortunate effect of keeping many from having contact with those most in need of the gospel. ----- Posted by will on 10/24/04 at 09:56 AM Katy: First of all, I don't know. But somehow my mind connected this a little quote in my weekly journal, with your question: "The only way you can truly control how you're seen is by being honest all the time." - Tom Hanks. I suspect 'it' has something to do with honesty...first with yourself and God, and then with others - never losing sight of who you are as a fellow traveler while never forgetting who you are in God - ransomed, redeemed, adopted etc. Do you suppose? Or does this take us, again, into the ether? (p.s. found your blog via Master's Artist. Your entry about housework below, is hilarious!) Violet Posted by violet on 10/24/04 at 07:55 PM It's so curious to me that I am more curious and questioning now then I ever was as a teenager or young adult. Excellent question, Katy! It would seem that those who have a personal relationship with the Creator should then be the most innovative and creative individuals in whatever field they're involved in. I wonder if instead of "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" we become captive to a "lifestyle" that a majority agrees on is what Christ would mean or want. Just another thought ... I'll be chewing on all of these for a while.. Posted by Anne on 10/25/04 at 12:50 AM So, while we're here in our little subculture, the mainstream has recently been inundating us with musicians of the caliber of Beethoven, Duke Ellington or even Presley? Borders and B&N are crammed with the works of contemporary Shakespeares, Fitzgeralds and Whitmans? Public debate is being carried on by people approaching the genius of Clay, Calhoun and Webster? And, to the postmodernists, this is important? Some tastes are, after all, "true" and others are not? It's not that there's no merit to the critique; but surely the pot is calling the kettle black. As for being in the culture but not of it, is it the postmodernists who are feeding the homeless? Gathering gifts to give to the children of inmates, and others who'd otherwise go without? Freezing by Salvation Army kettles so that that organization will continue to work with those in need where they are? I happen to dislike the cheesy music, and to think Kinkade's use of color would be more appropriate to the tropics than to his vaguely New and Old England settings; but confess that one of the best novels I've ever read was all but sexless and set on the prarie: Willa Cather's "My Antonia." But if we Christians should indeed rise from our present level of culture, let's hope we don't stop where the mainstream is. Posted by BobW on 10/25/04 at 04:50 AM This is not new, but I feel it so acutely--while American Christians are mostly ready to decry the depravity of our mainstream culture, they seem blind to their habit of equating American cultural and political values (e.g., the superiority of capitalism) with those laid out in the Bible. I agree with BobW that there isn't much happening in the mainstream that I feel I am missing as a Christian. Actually, I long for the company of anyone--Christian or otherwise--who has something to talk about other than sports and shopping. However, I expect to remain isolated as a middle-aged person who loves Jesus, loves the Church, loves the Bible, and is a tree-hugging, vegetarian, anti-consumerism, aesthete in the American upper Midwest. I found this blog in my search for solace--our church is having a serious discussion on homosexuality in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and I was doing okay until I foolishly said that I didn't see that it mattered whether Jesus had a relationship with John, with Mary Magdalene, or with no one--it has nothing to do with the truth of the gospel. My point was that we should stop trying to shape God in our own image and rather seek a clear vision of who God really is and wants of us. It took me a week to realize that I had probably offended many people, and now I feel terrible about it. In the end, my Christian subculture really matters to me in a way that nothing else does. I finally got a chance to talk about something really engaging, and I blew it. Posted by Mary on 10/25/04 at 08:51 AM One of the things I love most about blogging is the way it gives readers a forum in which to tell it like it is. The comments here have been so thoughtful and individual and from the heart (and mind). I appreciate each of you! For a number of years in my early faith experience, we were taught not to "touch God's anointed." In other words, don't disagree out loud with the leaders of the church. You can imagine how, for a chick like me, this might have been a bit of a problem... :) One of the things I'm hoping develops through the emerging church is the capacity to have "conversation" which is able to process disagreement among the conversationalists in a more Christlike manner than the church has managed in the past. (Mary, I can very much sympathize with the pain you're experiencing after voicing your feelings to your church. I'm sorry...) We modernists, or pre-emergents, or may-never-figure-out-how-to-be-emergents, or old fogies, or whatever we are--many of us would still like to be included in this process of understanding how better to be Christians who are effectively engaged in the world. Thanks to everyone here... Posted by katy on 10/25/04 at 07:58 PM i said it before, and i'll say it again...while i can appreciate many of the facets of what makes up the "emergent church", i believe that distinctly seperating oneself from the church at large makes you susceptible to being thought of as devisive at best, and cultlike at worst. in the ten years that i have been a born again Christian, nothing has saddened me more than to witness the sides drawn, the barbs thrown, the walls built up and the doors slammed shut by professing believers to what i understand Jesus to have meant by the simple command "love one another." i watch my kids at home fight with each other over the most inane causes, but when an outsider comes in to play with them and there is a discrepancy - it's amazing how quickly they are on the same team against this new threat to playtime harmony. our lives are spent among outsiders, if we've taken up our cross to follow Christ, and while we can't help being physically in the world, we are commanded to not be of it. take what i say to the extreme, and you get total ecumenicalism to a fault - accepting all that bears His name in some form and questioning nothing. but at the risk of offending friends, i'll still say - take the view of the "emergent church" too far and it is an isolated, finger pointing, mocking club that does not show Christ's love. i don't really think that that's what it has become, i just don't see an excess of being "wise in the way you act toward outsiders; (making) the most of every opportunity"in their literature. to focus on arts being all they can be and leave by the wayside or minimize, as Bob W. pointed out here, helping and serving the poor, the unlovely, the destitute of this world, is plainly wrong. i personally am not drawn to the art of Kincade, or generally what makes up CCM these days - i do not think legislating with all our might against homosexuals is the way to go if we're really following the example of Christ...i do see a bubble, and it's not healthy. but neither, i believe, is speaking out against the bubble in anything but careful love. it's good to shake things up now and then, to reevaluate, to discuss amongst ourselves and to try to in some way to relate in order to reach. i just believe that if this is done without a firm anchor in place, or in a fog of "holier, not to mention cooler than thou" it is not going to end up being a thing that agrees with the heart of God. if this part of the church views itself as a beautiful butterfly crawling out of a colorless, dried up, now useless cocoon - i just want it to be known that i personally have been challenged, encouraged, befriended, taught, and loved tremendously by many in that cocoon, not to mention given beautiful art and music by these same friends. care needs to be taken... thanks for the forum, katy. justadjust.blogspot.com Posted by lisa on 10/25/04 at 09:58 PM lisa, i really, really appreciate your thoughts. thank you for sharing them. Posted by Amber on 10/26/04 at 03:11 AM amber, thanks for saying that..i hesitated a bit to share all that here, but it is my honest response. hope it at least provokes thought in those who read it and aren't encouraged... Posted by lisa on 10/26/04 at 09:21 AM It was very interesting to read all your comments, as an Evangelical Christian in England. I guess if we were in the US they would call us born again, but that label is not used much on this side of the Atlantic. The interesting thing is that here in England there is no Christian subculture as such, at least not seen from the inside. Cheesy music tends to be restricted to church singing (I wish we sang more of the old hymns, I like that music better) and I know some young Christians who go clubbing and watch football the same way they non-Christian peers do. It is more from the outside that society seems to often think we are different, and I often feel society feels us to be alien, even more alien than muslims. This does not seem to apply so much to liberal Christians, who are all too willing to embrace contemporary values even if they go against the teaching of the Bible. I think it is very sad that we should be regarded as something alien and not relevant to society. Our church is mostly made up of twenty-somethings and is a very vibrant, friendly community. At the same time mainstream media sometimes goes as far as literally demonising us. As far as the UK is concerned it is not us who need to change, it is not us who erect the fences. Posted by Susanna on 10/26/04 at 02:27 PM I've really appreciated all the thoughtful and insightful (not inciteful!) comments here. Thanks to each of you for being honest, and also for not attacking anyone else for their opinions. It's great when a blog can be something of a safe place, and that's what I was hoping might happen here. You're all pretty terrific folks, if you ask me. Posted by katy on 10/26/04 at 08:15 PM And a hearty welcome to Violet and Mary, new kids on the fallible block. Not sure if Bob and Susanna are new or not, but make yourselves at home! Posted by katy on 10/26/04 at 08:19 PM Page 1 of 1 pages Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. Next entry: Time-Zoned Out? Previous entry: Third Party? << Back to main


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Personal blog of christianwriter & fallible momKaty McKenna Raymondin Kansas City, Missouri

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Just Thought I’d Ask

Personal blog of christian
writer & fallible mom
Katy McKenna Raymond
in Kansas City, Missouri