A Whole Bunch of SUVs, or What?

In years past, after the idea of the "moral majority" had fallen by the wayside, the term "family values" became huge in certain constituencies. I never heard those words spoken even once, though, during this election season.

But this morning, as media people interviewed commentators about the possible reason for John Kerry's defeat, the term "moral values" was repeated on any number of networks.

Evidently, the suspicion is that it wasn't the economy, stupid, and it wasn't the war, stupid, either. Word among the pundits is that the Kerry campaign may have inadvertently looked down their noses at those whose "moral values" ultimately drove them to vote for President Bush.

As I flipped through the channels, I must have heard the word "moral" twenty or thirty times in as many minutes, and it struck me as bizarre, since it's not a word that's bandied about in polite society much anymore.

It must have sunk in with the populace at large, though, or at least with the people responsible for writing closed captions for Fox News.

Linda Vester reported that John Kerry and his entourage were filing into their SUVs on the way from his Beacon Hill home to make his concession speech.

As the cars pulled away and Vester referred to the "motorcade," the closed caption read, "They'll morality-cade over..."

Americans are an impressionable bunch, aren't we?

Posted by Katy on 11/03/04 at 09:52 PM

Fallible Comments...

Katy, in Canada any politician who can be 'smeared' with the label of moral values -- especially if those values have any taint of Christianity about them, and especially if said values can be foreseen to possibly influence stance on social issues (read gay marriage and abortion) -- quickly becomes a pariah, esp. in the media. I wish 'we' were the least bit impressionable. Political correctness rules here.
-----
Posted by violet on 11/04/04 at 06:22 AM
Hi Katy -- I came over from Lisa's blog... I so appreciate you pointing this out. I have noticed over the years that while people outwardly will revile the name of Jesus and those who truly are followers, that when push comes to shove, in the foxholes, in the trenches and stench of life, those in crisis reach out to and hold onto the "moral" ones... there is something appealing underneath it all -- I hope it's the aroma of the Holy Spirit that people are really seeing and reaching for... even in an election setting people long for a sense of something or someone "bigger" to be in control - maybe they are responding to the commitment of faith that Mr. Bush proclaims?! And how interesting that so many may not even realize what it is they are being drawn to (that was awful grammar!).
Posted by Pauline on 11/04/04 at 07:22 PM
Violet and Pauline--The interesting thing about the phrase "moral values" is that the term wasn't thrown around during the campaign at all. In fact, it seems to me in times past, "family values" caught a lot of flak and was made fun of by the populace. "I've got a family, so I guess that means I have family values--har de har har!"

It wasn't until the exit polls that the words "moral values" came up. And then in the commentary to follow the election. The commentators seemed largely shocked that the voters would admit to having cast votes through a moral values framework.

It was weird, though, that the commentators kept referring to moral values as an "issue,' like the economy or the war. I would argue that an amendment to ban gay marriage is an "issue," and that "moral values" are the framework through which you see an issue.

The commentators also kept repeating that the "intellectual elite" (of which I am certain they counted themselves members!) would somehow have to find a way, if they ever hoped to regain political power, to relate to all those people in the red states.....
Posted by katy on 11/04/04 at 07:57 PM
It's simply amazing how the seculars and other eggheads had to be hit over the head with this on Election Day itself. One would think that issues like gay marriage, abortion rights and faith in the public square had not been mentioned in the campaign season at all. My wife and I tuned away from NPR when it became obvious that their discussion of "moral values" was going to have much the tone of a discussion of the discovery of a square circle or of a planet with intelligent life.

The Democratic Party is going to have to get through its collective head that when it takes its all-or-nothing stances on issues like abortion, it's going to lose at the national level; and that saying you aren't going to "impose [my] values" on others only signals that you're going to impose someone else's. Who knows how many otherwise excellent Democrats went down to defeat this year because they were tied to a party that sees no reasons why gay marriage might be a bad idea, and no reasons why any woman of any age should not have a right to abort for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy.
Posted by BobW. on 11/04/04 at 11:32 PM
I so agree, Katy, "that 'moral values' are the framework through which you see an issue." I get so tired of hearing about how our nation is supposed to separate church/state like church, or religion is just another thing to "do" and has nothing to do with human "beings"... how can I separate my political stance from my faith? How can I agree that my tax dollars can be spent on activities that, to me, are reprehensible? Why is it that "tolerance" applies only to one portion of the population? It just frustrates me to no end to see the media elite call people like me "narrow minded" when they

those who cling to "moral values" just as much as they claim those of moral values are

-based.... oh, what a soapbox I am standing on! I don't know that this is what you had in mind, Katy! I pray that people in the elite media will open their eyes to see that Faith is not a set of rules and regulations that can be separated out from daily life... it is based on a relationship with the Living God...
Posted by Pauline on 11/05/04 at 08:01 AM
From the other side of the coin....

I am a heterosexual, married Christian mother of two young children who believes that gays should be allowed to marry, and that the state should not insert itself in people's private reproductive decisions. I've come to those conclusions through much prayer and study----just as many of you have come to opposite conclusions in the same way.

It is hard for me to listen to all this talk of "moral values," because the clear subtext is that I don't have any. It makes me feel like a outcast in my own country---and my current feelings of pain and isolation are nothing compared to those of my gay friends and family members. One friend said "Not only do they see me as a 2nd class citizen---they see me as a threat worse than terrorists!"

Is there not some way that my values and your values can find common ground? Or are we doomed to continue shouting at one another across an unbridgeable divide?
Posted by Allegra on 11/05/04 at 05:38 PM
Allegra, of course, makes some excellent points. I would love to see the exact wording of the exit polls in question. I think it would be weird if the voters were asked which issues their decision was based upon, and given a multiple-choice list from which to choose.

Did you base your decision for president on 1.the war in Iraq, 2. the economy or 3. moral values

My point is that moral values is not an issue, it's a particular framwork through which each person sees issues, and the framework isn't the same for everyone. What the heck does "moral values" mean anyway? Even the definition of that term would be different for everyone.

Christians are widely disparate when it comes to how they define "moral values," too. We all have them, but for some of us certain issues rise to the top of the pile when viewed through our framework, and for others different issues rise to the top.

It does no good for any Christian to assume that we all vote the same way or hold the same social and political ideals. I need to always be returning to the common ground with my fellow believers, which surely is the cross.

Thanks to all for expressing their feelings!
Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:01 PM
And another thing:
The exit pollsters are telling us that people voted on the issue of "moral values," but they haven't told us how those voters voted! Presumably, just as many Democrats as Republicans (or more) would have responded "moral values." Why is the press acting like it was only the Repubs who responded with that answer? Do they know something about the polls that we don't?

The press is acting shocked, like "OMG, we didn't know the Repubs were still stuck on that dinosaur of an idea," when it's likely the Democrats are stuck on "moral values" in equal numbers!
Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:09 PM
Howdy,

I got here from www.seethru.co.uk/games/randomURL/index.htm
which has your blog spotlighted as "Quite funny weblog-type diary thing." I wasn't sure if you'd seen it or knew about it yet, but I thought you might find that interesting. Incidentally, I agree with their assessment. Your blog seems hillarious.

Hasta con queso,

Adam
Posted by Adam on 11/05/04 at 08:28 PM
Adam--You know what's really hilarious? The site you mention has not updated its recommendations for, like, three years! It's as if the guy responsible for calling my site "quite funny" got fired for poor judgment or something and they didn't hire his replacement! At any rate, it's been my long-running good fortune to pick up most of my new readers through this very old rec! Thanks for commenting...
Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:40 PM
i voted (and talked about it before the exit polling) on the basis of moral issues. allegra, i agree wholeheartedly with you about the idea that "the state should not insert itself in people's private reproductive decisions." i believe, however, that since it did so years back, and since it continues to be a very public, a very litigatious issue, as a Christian i have to openly respond to that, and that one of the best ways to do so is to cast my vote on election day for someone who desires to turn the judicial wheels around on this one. it is a flawed thing that it has become what it is - i am convicted to participate as best i understand how to within this unfortunate framework. as far as gay rights..another private issue that has been put on the very public national stage. when i became a christian, most of my chicago theater/nightclub friends were gay - i had shared good times, apartments, laughter and tears with them. they are people, not a blob of sin we need to recoil at, as i've understood many Christians to believe. They in themselves are not the enemy, our battles are not waged against flesh and blood...they are in large part lost to Christ, so we ought to pray for their salvation - that God will give them eyes to see His perfect purpose for their lives - He is their creator. Again, since it has become a very public and litigatious issue, i have to consider things larger than the person ensnared in this particular sinful lifestyle, i have to consider things like what they might be allowed to teach my kids in school. sticky, difficult issues that i think believers may have some understanding on, but may be missing the mark of God's heart in.

justadjust.blogspot.com
Posted by lisa on 11/05/04 at 08:51 PM
"they are in large part lost to Christ,"

"sinful lifestyle"

These are where you lose me, Lisa. In my understanding, no one CAN be lost to Christ. He is Lord of all, so how can any be lost to him?

And I cannot get exercised about one particular "sinful lifestyle" when my own is so sinful. Each day, I am impatient, dishonest with myself and others, greedy, thoughtless, vengeful, unkind, lustful, and a host of other sins. Every day I pray for forgiveness of those sins---yet I commit them over and over again.

If I thought human beings were perfectable in this life, maybe I could bring myself to believe that somehow homosexuality is a sin that is uniquely "awful." If I believed that I could live a truly sinless life, maybe I would feel differently.

But my daily sins CANNOT be any less offensive to God than two gays or lesbians who love one another. Knowing those things are wrong, I do them anyway----and hope and pray that God will forgive me for them. If God cannot or will not forgive two same-sex people for loving one another and wanting to be in a committed monogamous relationship, I have absolutely no hope that He will forgive my multitude of freely chosen sins.

This is why I trust in God's grace. I cannot earn my way into heaven---and neither can gays or lesbians. When the Last Day comes, I believe that I will throw myself at Jesus' feet and say "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." And, based on what I read in the Gospels, I hope he will---and that I will stand arm in arm with you, Katy, and all my gay and lesbian friends and family and sing God's praises for all eternity.
Posted by Allegra on 11/05/04 at 11:58 PM
allegra, i am glad that we can dialouge about these issues. my hope is that we can share our opinions and understandings with mutual respect. if i've offended you so far, i'm sorry, and i'd like to respond to what you've said.
I believe that although God made every person, though "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Mt. 5:45), that there is a distinct difference between those who have accepted His son Jesus' death on a cross as a substitute for the punishment they deserve for their own sin and those who have rejected this truth, this gift. This is what I mean by "lost to Christ" - God of course can see all things in His creation - He is Lord of all. But He made people with a will, and there are people who reject Him as their Lord, who do not believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, life, light, and truth. it is also what i mean by the term 'sinful lifestyle'. the difference is between those who have rejected God's gift of Christ and live always in sin, though they may appear to be very good people - and those who have accepted God's gift of Christ in their place, who sin every day but live a life of confession, of growth in understanding more about God, of a desire to live for Him, and out of a failure to be able to obey His commands ("love the Lord your God...love your neighbor as yourself"), learn to depend on Him for everything.
as far as homosexuality being a "uniquely awful" sin - there are a few places in the Bible that have given me an understanding of how God views sexual sin in general. 1 Cor. 6:18 tells us about all other sins being committed outside a person's own body, but sexual sin is committed against one's own body. Genesis 1 & 2 let us know the purpose for which God gave woman to man - she was the suitable helper made just for him when among the animals none could be found. and in Mt. 5 Jesus specifies marital unfaithfulness as the only good reason for anyone to get a divorce. Where the Bible talks specifically about the sin of homosexuality, Romans 1, it says that God gave people over to this particular sin once they knew Him as God, but refused to glorify Him or give thanks to Him, and gave up the worship of Him for images of things that were made by Him. it is spoken of here as "sinful, impure, shameful, unnatural, and indecent." this in itself does not imply that homosexuality is a worse sin than others, but it's important to look at if we want to know what God thinks about it.
i agree with you that noone can live a sinless life here on this earth. 1 John 1:8 makes this clear, and relieves me of the idea that I must be perfect..I cannot. the following verse gives the answer and relief - if i confess my sin, he is faithful and just and will forgive me. the problem with living a homosexual lifestyle is that a person doing so is living in sin, according to God's word - and not confessing it as sin. this is not a popular concept, but it is the truth. just so you know - i am not unfamiliar with the understanding that gay people are people, too..i spent my college years in chicago, studying theater and going to nightclubs...most of my friends were gay. since then i have become a Christian, and my understanding of God's view on this issue is hard to deal with, but nonetheless, i believe, the way it is. it's not that God will not forgive two people who want to live in a monogamous, loving relationship and also happen to be the same sex - it's that people living in this way show by their day to day choice to live this way that they have rejected God's truth, God's gift of His son Jesus and his death in our place, God's plan for their lives that he created. he will forgive our sin - if we confess it as sin. i need His grace to make it every day, but i cannot ignore the other side of the same coin about Him - while He is full of grace, mercy, patience, and is love personified - he is also holy, perfect, all powerful, and all knowing. i certainly do not think that anyone can earn their way into heaven - the Bible is clear that "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that noone can boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)
this is a long reply, i know..thanks for bearing with me and i'm curious to know what you would reply. if this is getting to be too long a discussion for this format (katy?), i'd be glad to email with you, allegra.

justadjust.blogspot.com
Posted by lisa on 11/06/04 at 02:42 AM
Lisa and Allegra--Thanks for all your heartfelt honesty here. I appreciate that your attitudes have been kind! If you both send me your email addresses, I'll hook you up with each other. If only one sends her address, I'll assume the other doesn't want to continue discussing. Does that sound fair? Blessings!!
Posted by katy on 11/06/04 at 03:11 AM
Allegra,
Rock on for your honest insight. Thanks for sharing and hopefully opening up a few eyes to "the other side of the coin." Too often people are very closed-minded when it comes to the issues.
Posted by Bridget on 11/06/04 at 03:32 AM
Allegra, I don't for a moment doubt that you have moral values. It is entirely possible to arrive at a pro-gay and (at least partially) pro-choice position as you did, through thought, reflection and prayer. But the news folks and other self-described intelligentsia seem to at an utter loss at the concept that those of us on the other side of the issues have also arrived at our opinions the same way, can base them both on the Bible and secular philosophy, and are prepared to vote our beliefs ahead of our pocketbooks, our interest in what we conceive as a moral society over our narrow self-interest. What amazes me is that it is the exit polls - not all those polls that came before, not all the public statements of spokespersons who could simply not be dismissed as "fundies" or "Bible thumpers" - that finally woke these people up. Whatever their IQs, their political naivete is astounding.

And, by the way, I question that all that many of them arrived at the conclusions they share with you through the same process you say you used. We here on the right side of the spectrum aren't the only ones who have to watch out for jerking knees.
Posted by BobW. on 11/06/04 at 05:19 AM
Bob's point is an interesting one. Of all those exit-polled who claimed to vote based on their "moral values," 20% said they voted for Kerry. (My earlier comments don't reflect this statistic, since I hadn't heard it when I wrote.)

Why aren't the so-called "intellectual elite" as shocked and amazed by the 20% Kerry moral-values-voters as they claim to be by the 80% Bush moral-values-voters?

Personally, I think moral-values-voters, whether Democrat or Republican, rock...
Posted by katy on 11/06/04 at 05:36 AM

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Personal blog of christian writer & fallible mom Katy McKenna Raymond in Kansas City, Missouri Katy is represented by Greg Johnson at WordServe Literary Read more Katy at LateBoomer.net Follow Katy on Twitter Follow Katy on Facebook 123 Recent Posts Try Becoming Brenda Starr Off Beat Scattered That’s It So I’ve Finally Signed With An Agent. Now What? The Spoon Sciatica Sweetheart A Woman’s Train of Thought Has No Caboose However much we own, we are all still living on borrowed time After all, when restaurants shrink portions, they don’t shrink prices. As with everything in life, balance is key. Slow down, you move too fast… Yeah, I know. I have issues. Search Advanced Search Syndicate Login E me at katy @ ngenius.com	A Whole Bunch of SUVs, or What? In years past, after the idea of the "moral majority" had fallen by the wayside, the term "family values" became huge in certain constituencies. I never heard those words spoken even once, though, during this election season. But this morning, as media people interviewed commentators about the possible reason for John Kerry's defeat, the term "moral values" was repeated on any number of networks. Evidently, the suspicion is that it wasn't the economy, stupid, and it wasn't the war, stupid, either. Word among the pundits is that the Kerry campaign may have inadvertently looked down their noses at those whose "moral values" ultimately drove them to vote for President Bush. As I flipped through the channels, I must have heard the word "moral" twenty or thirty times in as many minutes, and it struck me as bizarre, since it's not a word that's bandied about in polite society much anymore. It must have sunk in with the populace at large, though, or at least with the people responsible for writing closed captions for Fox News. Linda Vester reported that John Kerry and his entourage were filing into their SUVs on the way from his Beacon Hill home to make his concession speech. As the cars pulled away and Vester referred to the "motorcade," the closed caption read, "They'll morality-cade over..." Americans are an impressionable bunch, aren't we? Posted by Katy on 11/03/04 at 09:52 PM Fallible Comments... Katy, in Canada any politician who can be 'smeared' with the label of moral values -- especially if those values have any taint of Christianity about them, and especially if said values can be foreseen to possibly influence stance on social issues (read gay marriage and abortion) -- quickly becomes a pariah, esp. in the media. I wish 'we' were the least bit impressionable. Political correctness rules here. ----- Posted by violet on 11/04/04 at 06:22 AM Hi Katy -- I came over from Lisa's blog... I so appreciate you pointing this out. I have noticed over the years that while people outwardly will revile the name of Jesus and those who truly are followers, that when push comes to shove, in the foxholes, in the trenches and stench of life, those in crisis reach out to and hold onto the "moral" ones... there is something appealing underneath it all -- I hope it's the aroma of the Holy Spirit that people are really seeing and reaching for... even in an election setting people long for a sense of something or someone "bigger" to be in control - maybe they are responding to the commitment of faith that Mr. Bush proclaims?! And how interesting that so many may not even realize what it is they are being drawn to (that was awful grammar!). Posted by Pauline on 11/04/04 at 07:22 PM Violet and Pauline--The interesting thing about the phrase "moral values" is that the term wasn't thrown around during the campaign at all. In fact, it seems to me in times past, "family values" caught a lot of flak and was made fun of by the populace. "I've got a family, so I guess that means I have family values--har de har har!" It wasn't until the exit polls that the words "moral values" came up. And then in the commentary to follow the election. The commentators seemed largely shocked that the voters would admit to having cast votes through a moral values framework. It was weird, though, that the commentators kept referring to moral values as an "issue,' like the economy or the war. I would argue that an amendment to ban gay marriage is an "issue," and that "moral values" are the framework through which you see an issue. The commentators also kept repeating that the "intellectual elite" (of which I am certain they counted themselves members!) would somehow have to find a way, if they ever hoped to regain political power, to relate to all those people in the red states..... Posted by katy on 11/04/04 at 07:57 PM It's simply amazing how the seculars and other eggheads had to be hit over the head with this on Election Day itself. One would think that issues like gay marriage, abortion rights and faith in the public square had not been mentioned in the campaign season at all. My wife and I tuned away from NPR when it became obvious that their discussion of "moral values" was going to have much the tone of a discussion of the discovery of a square circle or of a planet with intelligent life. The Democratic Party is going to have to get through its collective head that when it takes its all-or-nothing stances on issues like abortion, it's going to lose at the national level; and that saying you aren't going to "impose [my] values" on others only signals that you're going to impose someone else's. Who knows how many otherwise excellent Democrats went down to defeat this year because they were tied to a party that sees no reasons why gay marriage might be a bad idea, and no reasons why any woman of any age should not have a right to abort for any reason, at any stage of pregnancy. Posted by BobW. on 11/04/04 at 11:32 PM I so agree, Katy, "that 'moral values' are the framework through which you see an issue." I get so tired of hearing about how our nation is supposed to separate church/state like church, or religion is just another thing to "do" and has nothing to do with human "beings"... how can I separate my political stance from my faith? How can I agree that my tax dollars can be spent on activities that, to me, are reprehensible? Why is it that "tolerance" applies only to one portion of the population? It just frustrates me to no end to see the media elite call people like me "narrow minded" when they those who cling to "moral values" just as much as they claim those of moral values are -based.... oh, what a soapbox I am standing on! I don't know that this is what you had in mind, Katy! I pray that people in the elite media will open their eyes to see that Faith is not a set of rules and regulations that can be separated out from daily life... it is based on a relationship with the Living God... Posted by Pauline on 11/05/04 at 08:01 AM From the other side of the coin.... I am a heterosexual, married Christian mother of two young children who believes that gays should be allowed to marry, and that the state should not insert itself in people's private reproductive decisions. I've come to those conclusions through much prayer and study----just as many of you have come to opposite conclusions in the same way. It is hard for me to listen to all this talk of "moral values," because the clear subtext is that I don't have any. It makes me feel like a outcast in my own country---and my current feelings of pain and isolation are nothing compared to those of my gay friends and family members. One friend said "Not only do they see me as a 2nd class citizen---they see me as a threat worse than terrorists!" Is there not some way that my values and your values can find common ground? Or are we doomed to continue shouting at one another across an unbridgeable divide? Posted by Allegra on 11/05/04 at 05:38 PM Allegra, of course, makes some excellent points. I would love to see the exact wording of the exit polls in question. I think it would be weird if the voters were asked which issues their decision was based upon, and given a multiple-choice list from which to choose. Did you base your decision for president on 1.the war in Iraq, 2. the economy or 3. moral values My point is that moral values is not an issue, it's a particular framwork through which each person sees issues, and the framework isn't the same for everyone. What the heck does "moral values" mean anyway? Even the definition of that term would be different for everyone. Christians are widely disparate when it comes to how they define "moral values," too. We all have them, but for some of us certain issues rise to the top of the pile when viewed through our framework, and for others different issues rise to the top. It does no good for any Christian to assume that we all vote the same way or hold the same social and political ideals. I need to always be returning to the common ground with my fellow believers, which surely is the cross. Thanks to all for expressing their feelings! Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:01 PM And another thing: The exit pollsters are telling us that people voted on the issue of "moral values," but they haven't told us how those voters voted! Presumably, just as many Democrats as Republicans (or more) would have responded "moral values." Why is the press acting like it was only the Repubs who responded with that answer? Do they know something about the polls that we don't? The press is acting shocked, like "OMG, we didn't know the Repubs were still stuck on that dinosaur of an idea," when it's likely the Democrats are stuck on "moral values" in equal numbers! Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:09 PM Howdy, I got here from www.seethru.co.uk/games/randomURL/index.htm which has your blog spotlighted as "Quite funny weblog-type diary thing." I wasn't sure if you'd seen it or knew about it yet, but I thought you might find that interesting. Incidentally, I agree with their assessment. Your blog seems hillarious. Hasta con queso, Adam Posted by Adam on 11/05/04 at 08:28 PM Adam--You know what's really hilarious? The site you mention has not updated its recommendations for, like, three years! It's as if the guy responsible for calling my site "quite funny" got fired for poor judgment or something and they didn't hire his replacement! At any rate, it's been my long-running good fortune to pick up most of my new readers through this very old rec! Thanks for commenting... Posted by katy on 11/05/04 at 08:40 PM i voted (and talked about it before the exit polling) on the basis of moral issues. allegra, i agree wholeheartedly with you about the idea that "the state should not insert itself in people's private reproductive decisions." i believe, however, that since it did so years back, and since it continues to be a very public, a very litigatious issue, as a Christian i have to openly respond to that, and that one of the best ways to do so is to cast my vote on election day for someone who desires to turn the judicial wheels around on this one. it is a flawed thing that it has become what it is - i am convicted to participate as best i understand how to within this unfortunate framework. as far as gay rights..another private issue that has been put on the very public national stage. when i became a christian, most of my chicago theater/nightclub friends were gay - i had shared good times, apartments, laughter and tears with them. they are people, not a blob of sin we need to recoil at, as i've understood many Christians to believe. They in themselves are not the enemy, our battles are not waged against flesh and blood...they are in large part lost to Christ, so we ought to pray for their salvation - that God will give them eyes to see His perfect purpose for their lives - He is their creator. Again, since it has become a very public and litigatious issue, i have to consider things larger than the person ensnared in this particular sinful lifestyle, i have to consider things like what they might be allowed to teach my kids in school. sticky, difficult issues that i think believers may have some understanding on, but may be missing the mark of God's heart in. justadjust.blogspot.com Posted by lisa on 11/05/04 at 08:51 PM "they are in large part lost to Christ," "sinful lifestyle" These are where you lose me, Lisa. In my understanding, no one CAN be lost to Christ. He is Lord of all, so how can any be lost to him? And I cannot get exercised about one particular "sinful lifestyle" when my own is so sinful. Each day, I am impatient, dishonest with myself and others, greedy, thoughtless, vengeful, unkind, lustful, and a host of other sins. Every day I pray for forgiveness of those sins---yet I commit them over and over again. If I thought human beings were perfectable in this life, maybe I could bring myself to believe that somehow homosexuality is a sin that is uniquely "awful." If I believed that I could live a truly sinless life, maybe I would feel differently. But my daily sins CANNOT be any less offensive to God than two gays or lesbians who love one another. Knowing those things are wrong, I do them anyway----and hope and pray that God will forgive me for them. If God cannot or will not forgive two same-sex people for loving one another and wanting to be in a committed monogamous relationship, I have absolutely no hope that He will forgive my multitude of freely chosen sins. This is why I trust in God's grace. I cannot earn my way into heaven---and neither can gays or lesbians. When the Last Day comes, I believe that I will throw myself at Jesus' feet and say "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." And, based on what I read in the Gospels, I hope he will---and that I will stand arm in arm with you, Katy, and all my gay and lesbian friends and family and sing God's praises for all eternity. Posted by Allegra on 11/05/04 at 11:58 PM allegra, i am glad that we can dialouge about these issues. my hope is that we can share our opinions and understandings with mutual respect. if i've offended you so far, i'm sorry, and i'd like to respond to what you've said. I believe that although God made every person, though "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Mt. 5:45), that there is a distinct difference between those who have accepted His son Jesus' death on a cross as a substitute for the punishment they deserve for their own sin and those who have rejected this truth, this gift. This is what I mean by "lost to Christ" - God of course can see all things in His creation - He is Lord of all. But He made people with a will, and there are people who reject Him as their Lord, who do not believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, life, light, and truth. it is also what i mean by the term 'sinful lifestyle'. the difference is between those who have rejected God's gift of Christ and live always in sin, though they may appear to be very good people - and those who have accepted God's gift of Christ in their place, who sin every day but live a life of confession, of growth in understanding more about God, of a desire to live for Him, and out of a failure to be able to obey His commands ("love the Lord your God...love your neighbor as yourself"), learn to depend on Him for everything. as far as homosexuality being a "uniquely awful" sin - there are a few places in the Bible that have given me an understanding of how God views sexual sin in general. 1 Cor. 6:18 tells us about all other sins being committed outside a person's own body, but sexual sin is committed against one's own body. Genesis 1 & 2 let us know the purpose for which God gave woman to man - she was the suitable helper made just for him when among the animals none could be found. and in Mt. 5 Jesus specifies marital unfaithfulness as the only good reason for anyone to get a divorce. Where the Bible talks specifically about the sin of homosexuality, Romans 1, it says that God gave people over to this particular sin once they knew Him as God, but refused to glorify Him or give thanks to Him, and gave up the worship of Him for images of things that were made by Him. it is spoken of here as "sinful, impure, shameful, unnatural, and indecent." this in itself does not imply that homosexuality is a worse sin than others, but it's important to look at if we want to know what God thinks about it. i agree with you that noone can live a sinless life here on this earth. 1 John 1:8 makes this clear, and relieves me of the idea that I must be perfect..I cannot. the following verse gives the answer and relief - if i confess my sin, he is faithful and just and will forgive me. the problem with living a homosexual lifestyle is that a person doing so is living in sin, according to God's word - and not confessing it as sin. this is not a popular concept, but it is the truth. just so you know - i am not unfamiliar with the understanding that gay people are people, too..i spent my college years in chicago, studying theater and going to nightclubs...most of my friends were gay. since then i have become a Christian, and my understanding of God's view on this issue is hard to deal with, but nonetheless, i believe, the way it is. it's not that God will not forgive two people who want to live in a monogamous, loving relationship and also happen to be the same sex - it's that people living in this way show by their day to day choice to live this way that they have rejected God's truth, God's gift of His son Jesus and his death in our place, God's plan for their lives that he created. he will forgive our sin - if we confess it as sin. i need His grace to make it every day, but i cannot ignore the other side of the same coin about Him - while He is full of grace, mercy, patience, and is love personified - he is also holy, perfect, all powerful, and all knowing. i certainly do not think that anyone can earn their way into heaven - the Bible is clear that "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that noone can boast." (Eph. 2:8,9) this is a long reply, i know..thanks for bearing with me and i'm curious to know what you would reply. if this is getting to be too long a discussion for this format (katy?), i'd be glad to email with you, allegra. justadjust.blogspot.com Posted by lisa on 11/06/04 at 02:42 AM Lisa and Allegra--Thanks for all your heartfelt honesty here. I appreciate that your attitudes have been kind! If you both send me your email addresses, I'll hook you up with each other. If only one sends her address, I'll assume the other doesn't want to continue discussing. Does that sound fair? Blessings!! Posted by katy on 11/06/04 at 03:11 AM Allegra, Rock on for your honest insight. Thanks for sharing and hopefully opening up a few eyes to "the other side of the coin." Too often people are very closed-minded when it comes to the issues. Posted by Bridget on 11/06/04 at 03:32 AM Allegra, I don't for a moment doubt that you have moral values. It is entirely possible to arrive at a pro-gay and (at least partially) pro-choice position as you did, through thought, reflection and prayer. But the news folks and other self-described intelligentsia seem to at an utter loss at the concept that those of us on the other side of the issues have also arrived at our opinions the same way, can base them both on the Bible and secular philosophy, and are prepared to vote our beliefs ahead of our pocketbooks, our interest in what we conceive as a moral society over our narrow self-interest. What amazes me is that it is the exit polls - not all those polls that came before, not all the public statements of spokespersons who could simply not be dismissed as "fundies" or "Bible thumpers" - that finally woke these people up. Whatever their IQs, their political naivete is astounding. And, by the way, I question that all that many of them arrived at the conclusions they share with you through the same process you say you used. We here on the right side of the spectrum aren't the only ones who have to watch out for jerking knees. Posted by BobW. on 11/06/04 at 05:19 AM Bob's point is an interesting one. Of all those exit-polled who claimed to vote based on their "moral values," 20% said they voted for Kerry. (My earlier comments don't reflect this statistic, since I hadn't heard it when I wrote.) Why aren't the so-called "intellectual elite" as shocked and amazed by the 20% Kerry moral-values-voters as they claim to be by the 80% Bush moral-values-voters? Personally, I think moral-values-voters, whether Democrat or Republican, rock... Posted by katy on 11/06/04 at 05:36 AM Page 1 of 1 pages Commenting is not available in this weblog entry. Next entry: So Many Books, So Little Time... Previous entry: Vote Early, Vote Often? << Back to main


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Personal blog of christian
writer & fallible mom
Katy McKenna Raymond
in Kansas City, Missouri